Posts by Juan Viejo2

4

What happened to the Canyon Lake Congregation in Socal?

by Eymvee in

hi im new to the forum, and on a quest of sorts i was told the congregation was dissolved and not to talk about it but i am very curious.

i beleive it was 10 or so years ago ( i wasnt there) most of the publishers i believe were distributed among other congregations.

we had maybe fifteen "canyon lakers" but id like to know what caused this.

Juan Viejo2

Was that the Kelle Jarka Kingdom Hall?

He was an elder (I believe COBE) and he murdered his wife and was convicted.

JV

13

Has Eternal Life become a carrot?

by I_love_Jeff in

in the insight on the scriptures volume 2 pages 248-249 the society says, "so with obedient mankind, when man's last enemy, death, is brought to nothing, there will be no sin working in their bodies to bring death.

to time indefinite they will not need to die.

the insight on the scriptures vol 2, page 1102 -what time indefinite can mean, "however, the hebrew expression 'ohlam' does not in itself mean "forever".

Juan Viejo2

BTW - the same argument above would apply to those "anointed" who become part of the 144,000. Rule over the earth? For why? If everyone is perfect and without sin and busy, busy, busy doing good things, where do they come in and why does it take 144,000 of them - especially if they all speak with one voice and are under the direction of Jesus and Jehovah?

The logic escapes me...

JV

13

Has Eternal Life become a carrot?

by I_love_Jeff in

in the insight on the scriptures volume 2 pages 248-249 the society says, "so with obedient mankind, when man's last enemy, death, is brought to nothing, there will be no sin working in their bodies to bring death.

to time indefinite they will not need to die.

the insight on the scriptures vol 2, page 1102 -what time indefinite can mean, "however, the hebrew expression 'ohlam' does not in itself mean "forever".

Juan Viejo2

I've asked JWs about how long they would really like to live. Their natural first response is,"forever. Forever in a paradise earth."

Then I get ridiculous and ask them, "Forever? I can see living for another 100 years, watching the earth change into a paradise, taming the animals,etc. But what about 500 years out? What is going to keep you interested then - especially since there will be no need for sex as the world will surely have been filled to capacity by then. What about 1000 years later - one hundred thousand years? Hey, what about a million or a billion years? Forever is a long time to do the same things over and over again."

I point out that all things that live must die. The ancient redwood trees in California and the Pacific Northwest are literally thousands of years old (guess they never "sinned before god.") And yet they all do die at some point. Thousands of entire families of creatures (supposedly created by Jehovah) lasted for millions of years as a species, but not as individuals - have died and completely disappeared. Even stars and galaxies have met their doom.

So I ask them: "Does everlasting life really mean living 'forever'?

JV

104

The Secret is out....but nobody cares

by MrTheocratic in

i've been looking on this site for some time but never posted.

i'll give a little about myself, but not too much.

i'm a ex-bethelite ( brooklyn )and currently serving as an elder (10 years) (thinking about stepping down) on the service committee.

Juan Viejo2

This has been a generally excellent thread. It has pointed out many of the "hidden" facts about modern-day Jehovah's Witnesses. For most of the "faithful" it has become more of a cultural lifestyle rather that a religion that they absolutely believe in without question.

The "active" ones that I have met are generally well informed about the history of the Watchtower and they know that they are mostly living a lie. But most of the older Witnesses feel they have no place else to go and no desire to move on to something else. They know the Society is flawed and much of it is just made-up bullshit, but their response to that is the typical, "what other religion is more correct?"

They have truly become the equivalent of modern Jews. Yes, there are isolated pockets of super-Jews like the Hassidics, who go overboard and basically do what JWs do - bring their kids up to be like them and then shun them if they leave. "You don't wear the black clothes, the funny hat and the curly sideburns? Out with you!"

So the kids grow up to be like their parents even though they know it is all just part of their culture, not TRUTH about God or life or even their own history.

My own exposure to modern JWs has mostly proven that husbands stay in because of their wives and parents - wives stay in because of their husbands and parents and friends. Children stay in because they have no where else to go - even though they know that one or both of their parents really don't buy the whole package.

Thanks to my websites I get many inquiries from readers who identify themselves as JWs. Some of these inquiries are to verify something that I have written or they have read somewhere else (JWs are really quite limited as far as access to old literature and historic documentation.) "Can you send me a PDF of the WT or Awake! magazine that said [1975 would see Armageddon, for example] or the MP3 of the brother who said "stay alive 'til '75!"

The fact is that most JWs have heard about these things, but are reluctant to go search for the truth themselves. I think many of them are afraid that they might really find out the truth and then realize they have wasted their lives serviing the Watchtower - but again, where would they go and is it worth losing their families over it all?

While the blood doctrine, the protection of pedophiles, and the whole when the hell is Armageddon coming doctrine are subjects that we should be critical about - the priority that I see that will really lead to both an exodus and a full exposure of the evil of the Watchtower is to attack the practice of shunning. Disfellowshipping and disassociation - bleh! Leave those as they are - who cares? But forced and extreme shunning should be the focus and hammered constantly. There are movements in the UK and Europe toward banning extreme shunning, especially involving family members, and they seem to be making some headway.

If we can make even a dent in that horrific practice by publicizing it and using it to embarrass the Watchtower and its leaders, then we could see hundreds more JWs pack their book bags and hit the exit doors.

JV

52

It's starting shunning will stop brochure first.step

by poopie in

jw
friends

i'm in contact with service and writing and brochure first step there bleeding publishers they can't take it anymore publishers are depressed because they feel they must shun others and they know it's unloving.

Juan Viejo2

OFF-TOPIC:Not sure why my text is repeating (this has

Not sure why my text is repeating (this has happened before). I've seen it on some other posts as well. This is the only site where that seems to happen when I post.

[I've gone back and deleted the duplicated text.]

52

It's starting shunning will stop brochure first.step

by poopie in

jw
friends

i'm in contact with service and writing and brochure first step there bleeding publishers they can't take it anymore publishers are depressed because they feel they must shun others and they know it's unloving.

Juan Viejo2

I can see a slow shift to a more "conscience" driven approach to shunning. If that happens you will begin to see more articles and convention talks about "reaching out with mercy and understanding" as a way to bring those who left because of doctrinal or procedural disagreements.

I have heard that there will be "reach out" programs first to disassociated ones and then those who committed some carnal sin many years before. It makes no sense to block out elderly former JWs who were DFd 30 years ago for "fornication." Many of them couldn't recommit that sin now if they wanted to while others have become stable parents and married partners for years - so have "repented" by their actions (or health), if not by repeating words of repentance before a judicial committee.

I do believe that we will see in the relatively near future a "special ministry" directed to those who have been forced out and shunned by their families. Shunning of family members could be relegated to a "conscience matter" (as the Watchtower already claims it to be when asked by media or courts). Removing the threat of judicial action against those who refuse to fully shun someone could be justified. My mother and father would not shun me when I showed up at their door, but their conscience would not allow them to come and stay in my house or go out of their way to "invite" me to their home. My father was an elder for many years and as far as I know never was reproved for allowing me to visit him. My sister and niece followed the same pattern most of the time - but they would "harden their hearts" at various times after the Watchtower would clamp down.

Agree or not with my suggestion, but I do see some movement toward relaxation coming in the next five years. Too many JWs are being disfellowshipped or disassociating themselves and leaving - and then deciding that the whole JW experience is not worth fighting to rejoin - even if it means disconnection from loved ones.

JV

13

Could you help me with a little Witness history ?

by ukgirl in

as part of a student film project that i am completing i will be conducting a telephone interview with an exjw tomorrow.. the person i am interviewing was a witness between the years of the 50's (born in) - late 80's so obviously would have been in their late teens for the prophecies and events of 1975.. as this person is older than i, i am plan to tailor my questions around being a witness in that time period.

i just wonder if you could point me in the direction of any more date specific events surrounding this time period that i could touch upon in my interview ?.

much appreciated .

Juan Viejo2

Another important feature of the 1950s to 1970s was the release of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. The New Testament (the Greek Scriptures) was first released in 1950 and the first of the Hebrew Scriptures was released in 1953. The whole Bible was translated and released by 1960.

What we did not know was that we were being lied to the entire time. At the big International Conventions we were told that the Society had employed highly qualified scholars and translators to do the hard work. We were given word pictures of highly qualified brothers and non-Witness scholars viewing the Dead Sea Scrolls, accessing museums and libraries around the world (even the Vatican was mentioned), and pouring over ancient manuscripts with magnifying glasses, etc.

We would all cheer and clap and stand up to applaud the hard work being done. I remember getting my very own first leather bound edition of the complete NWT Bible in 1960.

But it was all lies. All a sham. We did not have specialized scholars accessing manuscripts and papyrus rolls in the British Museum and the Vatican. None of that ever happened. It was just Freddy Franz and a few specialized hellpers who took other modern and popular translations, along with the Emphatic Diaglott and similar books and then rewording using more modern (but not necessarily conversational) speech and writing styles. Freddy would approve and then read sections to Brother Knorr and the other officers of the Watchtower. They would rubberstamp his work and it would get published.

The fact is that we were scammed - and still are being scammed. They just outright lied to us from 1950 to 1975. They simply pulled it all out of Freddie's ass that whole time. Frankly I'm surprised that Raymond Franz, who all but acknowledged that he was aware of what happened, didn't throw in the towel earlier. It had to be bothering his conscience knowing that his uncle was scamming everyone.

JV

57

IMPORTANT NEWS: ABC News' Nightline will air a segment about the Watchtower (JWs) Wednesday morning at 12:35 a.m. EST

by AndersonsInfo in

important news:.

here in the united states, on wednesday morning, march 11th at 12:35 a.m., est, barring any breaking news the day before, the program, nightline, will air as their lead story a 9-minute segment about the watchtower (jehovah's witnesses).

the program is 30 minutes long and this segment is only one part of the show.

Juan Viejo2

This has been reset to late Thursday night (early Friday) at 12:35 AM on your local ABC affiliate station (USA onlyl)

JV

22

Memorial Date this year, why so far out ?

by Phizzy in

we have debated for many a long year on jwn about the "proper" date for the passover/memorial and my conclusion is that jw's get it all wrong for a number of reasons, but as the gospels are contradictory, nobody can say for sure.. most years they are close to the time by a day or so, signalled by the full moon occurring about then.. i believe this year they have chosen saturday april 11th.. this is a full week, near enough, away from the full moon.. what has gone on with their calculation ?.

Juan Viejo2

What screws everything up is that the Memorial is supposed to be after sundown on Nisan 14 (Jewish calendar).

Theoretically, this should be on or equivalent to the Thursday before Good Friday before Easter Sunday. Because the only thing consistent is that Good Friday and Easter Sunday fall on the weekend of or after the full moon, Nisan 14 can actually fall before or several days after the full moon. So we are really dealing with two calendars and two traditions. The last time I went to a Memorial was the 24th of April, 2011. If I remember correctly, the Memorial was celebrated on the 17th, the previous Sunday, almost a full week before Easter.

Didn't matter. Same old story. Same old boring prayers (like 6 of them). Same talk with the same old shit. Same old Manischewitz and stale crackers. Never went back and never will again. I have no idea if anyone actually partook of the emblems. Jehovah was definitely somewhere else that night.

JV

66

BART EHRMAN answers my question

by TerryWalstrom in

as a member on bart ehrman's blog, i am able to ask him direct questions.is jehovah in the bible?.

question:.

how firmly grounded in reality is the claim of jehovahs witnesses that the divine name (jehovah) belongs in the new testament?.

Juan Viejo2

Orphan Crow, et al -

Yes, the KJV Bible was used by JWs up and through most of the 1950s. The first segment of the New World Translation was released in 1950, and then segments of the Hebrew Scriptures were released at International Assemblies over the next 8 years. I got my first leather bound NWT in 1960 that had all of the segments and a concordance and footnotes. Even though it was my pride and joy at the time, one day while out in field service I traded my leather bound copy of the NWT for an even nicer and far more valuable leather bound copy of "The Complete Works of William Shakespeare." I've loved the Bard ever since.

There were problems using the NWT in field service and during new Bible studies. Since most people had the KJV, if they grabbed their Bible and wanted to read along with you (just to make sure you weren't trying to sneak something by them), the two versions did not match in many places (John 1:1). The accuracy of the KJV was so ingrained in the public's mind, that hearing verses read from the NWT made them suspicious that we were trying to "change the Bible." Of course, at the time we thought that was ridiculous. It was only later that we discovered that those suspicions were actually quite accurate and the NWT should have been titled, "The Fred Franz Authored and Authorized Version of the 1850 King James Version of the Bible."

JV